Draw Cool Air From Basement
posted 1 twelvemonth agone Number of slices to ship: Optional 'thank-you' annotation:
I'm trying to find means to make the house comfortable without burning fossil fuel.
In summer, my upstairs is sweltering while the basement is always a absurd 65 degrees Fahrenheit. Is there a reasonable fashion to pump that colder air up to absurd the higher floors? This would use some electricity, simply much less than an air conditioner, considering the air is already conditioned. My house doesn't have duct work, though, and then I'chiliad not seeing a good way to do it.
Just wondering if anyone has experience with this kind of affair.
pollinator
Posts: 171
Location: Midwest Montana
posted 1 year ago Number of slices to send: Optional 'thank-you' note:
I've never washed it myself, so take this with a grain of common salt, just I think yous could do it without electricity at all. Look into earth tubes and passive cooling. Normally people exercise it with tubes set into the ground, as the proper noun implies, but I would think a basement would work fine.
Yous could of course implement it with electricity to increase air catamenia, merely it might be worth experimenting without it commencement. I'd exist curious to hear the results from someone who's actually done information technology!
gardener 
Posts: 3826
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio,Price Hill 45205
posted one year ago Number of slices to transport: Optional 'give thanks-you' annotation:
I recall I would run a loop of 3" flexible dryer duct across the nascent flooring/walls.
I would use a bathroom fan to broadcast the air, with the end that was coming from the basement ending at the highest inhabited point in the house, and the intake at the lowest.
Attach it to a solar chimney for a no electricity pick.
Rocket Scientist
Posts: 4606
Location: latitude 47 N.W. montana zone 6A
posted ane yr agone Number of slices to transport: Optional 'thank-yous' note:
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Hi Joshua;
Y'all could try getting that cool basement air upstairs, simply I'm afraid that it won't make much difference at all.
Do you live where information technology is hot and humid all summer? If you lot do its a losing battle with out using A/C .
I grew upwardly on the east coast. All summer 98 degrees and 98% humidity... until belatedly at night when information technology dropped to 88 degrees and 98% humidity.... No fan worked , to wet for swamp cooler. Information technology was just xxxing hot! The basement was cooler merely how long does a child want to hang out in the cellar?
Dad refused to go A/C for years under the theory that they did not have them when he grew up.
If you are lucky enough to live where information technology is not humid and where you lot become cool nighttime fourth dimension temps fifty-fifty in the summer, then y'all take options.(similar northern Montana)
We leave our house open all night to cool it off. And so at oh 8 AM or and then we shut every door window and defunction all day. Information technology is very overnice until belatedly afternoon or early evening.
posted 1 twelvemonth agone Number of slices to send: Optional 'give thanks-yous' notation:
Howdy Joshua,
I don't hold out much hope for significant success but why non utilise a fan to move the air out of the basement into any upper room is readily available for a few days. Track the temp with a thermometer. This should be enough of an experiment to see if it is worth further effort.
Proficient decisions come from experience. Experience comes from making bad decisions. Mark Twain
pollinator
Posts: 2898
Location: Bendigo , Commonwealth of australia
posted 1 yr ago Number of slices to transport: Optional 'give thanks-you' note:
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Do yous have a photograph of the house?
You volition reduce the heat upstairs with insulation on the ceiling and sisalation in the roof behind the cladding.
As well calculation an air vent capable of removing hot air from the crenel will help a lot.
Yous tin become thermostat operated ones which removes hot air when it builds up, the ordinary units are hopeless.
posted ane twelvemonth ago Number of slices to send: Optional 'thank-you' note:
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John C Daley wrote:Do you accept a photo of the firm?
The first floor is a large rectangle divided into rooms (and a garage). The 2nd floor is a smaller rectangle in the center of that triangle nether the roof. There are unused crawl spaces on the sides of the triangle, and an unused attic above the second floor.
In that location are louvers in the attic, then I'm wondering if fans upwardly there blowing air out (and maybe airflow grates on the upstairs ceiling so heat tin can rise easily between the second flooring and the cranium) would assistance go on the upstairs cool. Has anyone done this?
John C Daley
pollinator
Posts: 2898
Location: Bendigo , Commonwealth of australia
posted 1 year ago Number of slices to send: Optional 'give thanks-you' annotation:
Photo helps a lot
I am every bit Aussie, and so our homes are built differently, only I have studied the differences.
Sometimes I have institute that the 'vents' really practice non vent, they are there for appearances.
I imagine it would be difficult to add anything inside the upstairs ceilings?
Just often the walls to upstairs are not insulated or not insulated well, that may be looked at.
What temperatures are you looking at?
My home in Bendigo Commonwealth of australia becomes uncomfortable with a room temperature of about38 celcius with a ceiling fan operating.
thomas rubino
Rocket Scientist
Posts: 4606
Location: latitude 47 N.W. montana zone 6A
posted ane yr ago Number of slices to send: Optional 'thank-you' note:
Common construction hither, uninsulated roof and an insulated ceiling. Vents do work ... they are just keeping the air in the attic from becoming to hot.
Would practise nothing virtually circulation inside the house.
master pollinator
Posts: 2174
Location: Canadian Prairies - Zone 3b
posted one year ago Number of slices to send: Optional 'thank-y'all' note:
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"There are louvers in the attic, so I'thousand wondering if fans upwards there blowing air out (and maybe airflow grates on the upstairs ceiling then heat tin rise easily between the 2d floor and the attic) would assistance keep the upstairs absurd. Has anyone done this?"
I have done something similar, and information technology works, using a scrounged loftier-volume furnace fan. And there are all sorts of high-volume attic ventilation devices at large box building stores for exactly that reason.
The cranium fans are designed for cross-ventilation within the cranium itself. For the level below, if you take libation air outside at some point in the day, you could in theory create openings to the upper floor and draw cooler air in through open windows on the shade side. With many houses, insulation/vapour barriers/wiring etc. would make that a imperial pain. You could also create the aforementioned cross-draft using only the windows themselves, blasting warm air out and cartoon cool air in. With high book menses, it works.
It becomes tricky if yous're trying to draw basement air upwards, though. That means cycling in warmer, more humid air that will condense in the cooler basement. Potential mold/mildew traps there.
Before you lot start chopping holes, consider: If yous don't take radon issues, perhaps the easiest and most energy efficient solution is to adapt: move yourself, and sleep downstairs.
My ii cents.
pollinator
Posts: 414
Location: Northwest Missouri
posted 1 twelvemonth ago Number of slices to send: Optional 'thank-y'all' note:
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I concur with the last post that cartoon air from the basement ways passing outdoor air through the basement. You'd have to open a basement window and suck air out the highest identify possible in your business firm, which would likely take the undesired effect of bringing a ton of moisture into your basement (as the warm boiling outside air loses heat, it would drop it'due south moisture on every cool surface of your basement.)
The strategy nosotros've adopted at our firm is to utilize awnings wherever the sun comes in the windows, particularly the west side. We didn't want to install an attic fan, so we put a "suck fan" on a dorsum room window that we turn on as soon as the outdoor temps go cooler than indoor, usually effectually 10pm. The fan draws cool dark air through the house, and mid morning time nosotros shut off the fan and all the windows. With proper shading, the house stays cool without A/C until late afternoon/early evening and we merely run the A/C a few hours a mean solar day.
I was frankly amazed at how well awnings work. When I covered the west window peculiarly. Even the inexpensive sun-sail shade awnings assistance.
I don't own the plants, they ain me.
posted 1 year ago Number of slices to send: Optional 'thank-y'all' notation:
I don't see why within air tin't be recirculated without cartoon outside air in. A simple air return from the upper lever to the basement would achieve that.
Good decisions come from experience. Experience comes from making bad decisions. Mark Twain
Douglas Alpenstock
chief pollinator
Posts: 2174
Location: Canadian Prairies - Zone 3b
posted one year ago Number of slices to send: Optional 'thank-you' note:
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John F Dean wrote:I don't see why inside air can't be recirculated without drawing exterior air in. A elementary air return from the upper lever to the basement would achieve that.
That'due south truthful, although the warm upstairs air will typically have more entrained moisture than the air in the basement. How much depends on many factors (humans, showers, cooking, plants, opening doors and windows, etc.).
But I retrieve it'south more an upshot of volume. Usually a basement has much less air volume than the upstairs areas of a home. So, I recollect the cooling effectiveness would exist greatly diminished.
I can requite a easily-on example. For years, in our relatively dry climate, I mounted an old furnace fan in a basement window (exhaust mode), opened absurd-side upstairs windows, and sucked all the air out of the house for a few hours. This would not only remove the warm upstair air but would besides cool the upstairs surfaces and wall/ceiling materials. Very effective. Until our summers started to shift to a college humidity. One mean solar day I went downstairs to cheque on the fan, which had been running for hours, and found puddles of h2o on the concrete floor. I was really hunting around for a leaking water pipe when I realized my ventilation system had created an water distillery in the basement. After that I created a cross-draft system using the main floor and upstairs just.
posted 1 year agone Number of slices to send: Optional 'thank-you lot' note:
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To be sure, I am not a laic that this will work enough to make a real departure, merely some flexible duct work, say from an upper window to a basement window with a box fan at least blowing upwards from the basement (and maybe at both ends) would provide for an interesting experiment at little cost. Where I become a skeptic is while I am sure the initial air flow will be quite absurd, i am less confident as to how long it will take the basement too cool the air from the upper level once the initial volume of air from the basement is exchanged. My guess is that at that place will be minimal gain in the long term.
Expert decisions come up from feel. Experience comes from making bad decisions. Mark Twain
Douglas Alpenstock
master pollinator
Posts: 2174
Location: Canadian Prairies - Zone 3b
posted ane year ago Number of slices to transport: Optional 'thank-you' notation:
I concord, it's definitely worth experimenting with. That's how you figure out what actually works.
And information technology'due south worth the effort, because you can create cooling solutions that utilize 80-90% less electricity than Ac.
So, apologies if I come beyond as negative. I'm just pointing out a few potential pitfalls.
posted i year agone Number of slices to send: Optional 'thank-y'all' note:
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I didn't see you as negative at all. In the stop, nosotros finish up,in the aforementioned place.
Good decisions come from experience. Feel comes from making bad decisions. Mark Twain
pollinator
Posts: 350
Location: S. Ontario Canada
posted 1 twelvemonth ago Number of slices to send: Optional 'give thanks-y'all' note:
To practise it correct you'll take to expect for a place you tin can make a large duct from basement to height floor. Perhaps through a closet or sacrifice the corner of a room. Bigger the improve.
Close to the center of the house if y'all can. Just guessing 12 x 24 minimum. Mount the fan in the basement pushing cold air upward.
steward
Posts: 12539
Location: Northern WI (zone 4)
posted 1 yr ago Number of slices to transport: Optional 'give thanks-yous' note:
I similar John'south thought of trialing a temporary duct from a basement window to an upstairs window. I'd put it on the East or North side so the duct doesn't get heated by sunlight. Blow air to the upstairs and come across how much of a deviation information technology makes. I'm guessing information technology will feel colder where the basement air blows in but I'm not sure how much colder it volition make the room over the form of 4 hours.
If yous have a shady north window in the basement, you could also try only opening that window to allow libation air in and open an upstairs window to let hot air out. The whole house would human action like a chimney to exhaust the warm air in the house. In that instance you're replacing it with shaded outside air which may not be much better.
Regarding the upstairs air having more moisture in it, I'm non sure about that. I've always been led to believe that the dewpoint stays relatively similar in the whole house (excepting bathrooms and other wet betoken sources). Temps may modify and relative humidity may vary appropriately but that the basic dew point would be the aforementioned. So the hot upstairs air, when cooled down, would become colder and wetter but match the damper colder basement air. Perhaps I'm all wrong on that concept though...
They have made attic fans that blow massive amounts of business firm air up into the attic. These, I call back, are intended to work in conjunction with opening windows on the north side (in the northern hemisphere). The goal is to quickly remove hot air in the afternoon/evening and replace information technology with nicer outside air. I'm non sure if they're still sold. And they probably only piece of work well in some climates.
pollinator
Posts: 1233
Location: Chicago/San Francisco
posted 1 year ago Number of slices to send: Optional 'thank-you lot' annotation:
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The total basements of both old houses I take care of warm up relatively quickly w/out using any fans if I leave the outside basement door open up. This happens when nosotros go out the door open past error or when there is a lot of traffic in/out during the day. By relatively quickly I hateful at 95F. outside, the basement will go from 65F to 80+F in 2 days, three at the most. This leads me to believe at that place is not enough temperature drib in the basement to help cooling the upper floors much.
Whole-house fans which were sold for a few years to install into the attic stair hatch in an upstairs hallway work. At to the lowest degree they move air in through the living area, blowing it into the cranium and out, when in that location is sufficient openings for intake and outlet. They were removable for winter. Y'all can certainly cobble together something to move a lot of air if yous want. Cutting a hole or three in the walls of the upper living area that allow into attic "crawl spaces" and install some large fans. Do think through how much air y'all're going to move and how large the outside openings need to be. I don't remember the specs - it was 30+ years ago when those big fans were in vogue - only since big bathroom fans are over 500CFM and stove exhausts easily tiptop 1000CFM, you may be looking at 1500+ CFM. I would advise some actual in depth research of that type of installation.
Large stove fans _require_, by lawmaking, makeup air inlets from the outside into the kitchen in lodge to non crusade issues elsewhere in the house, especially with other combustion appliances like h2o heaters just also with any other HVAC in the business firm. Radon specs for your area should too be checked considering that big a "suck" will go looking for air to draw and it will notice places you may not want it to.
It'southward not hard to motion air. The question is whether it will do what yous want. For a whole-house fan(southward) to work right you must always open up the "intakes" whenever you power on the fan. That means a large window in all ground rooms you want to condition and quite possibly the front end and back doors. Smaller fans avoid some of the more than idea provoking problems (like violently slamming doors), but you must notwithstanding call back out carefully what you look it to do and size it properly. This stuff can be found on the net fairly easily.
I like erector gear up tinker toy lego stuff equally much as the next guy, just I would not get to fans first. For that, start by keeping the rut out. Not and then many Rambo points, but way more than reliable and cheap to run and maintain.
Somebody mentioned awnings. Yeah! Whatsoever sunbeams that get into your living expanse carry HUGE amount of heat energy. Blinds and curtains are better than nothing, just they just collect the rut in that little space adjacent their exterior facing surface - but withal within your living surface area.
2nd, passive ventilation. That means _easy to use_ openings, windows and doors, in every room. Windows and doors that function like new _and_ that are designed well plenty to be easily usable by the residents and with the opening big plenty to be useful _and_ that furniture is not arranged to cake convenient admission to the window.
Third, insulation. This is where it gets actually sweaty, dirty and as y'all search for the next five% y'all offset to pay money. Do spend 10-20 hours reading up on mod building science roof designs. It's non _exactly_ rocket science, but in that location are a lot of options and details. You need the overview and concepts in guild to brand informed choices for _your_ state of affairs. Probably the first one is vented cranium or sealed attic. There are arguments both ways.
Ane near costless pick (only lots of crud and sweat) for "unused" areas of an cranium is tin foil. Radiant barriers depend on having at least 3/iv" articulate infinite on each side and you can provide that relatively easily in the attic. Tin foil the whole underside of whatsoever exposed interior roof structure that gets sunday. Spray agglutinative tin piece of work or staples, just with staples you need some kind of "washer" to staple through - staples volition only blow correct through tin can foil. "Shirt" cardboard in 1-ane/2" squares or circles works; or larger if you're using a hammer stapler and have shaky aim. If the infinite is really and truly unused, you can tin foil it's floor as well. I did this 12 years ago and it made an unbearable attic cool enough to piece of work in. As I recall, using the cheaper thin foil works fine once yous learn how not to tear information technology all the time. If you're ham handed, get the thick industrial strenght stuff.
Whether you insulate the rafters or the ceiling or both depends on stuff. That why you demand the in depth overview. Every bit always with insulation of whatsoever kind, seal the holes first. ALL OF THEM. Clay and sweat aplenty. Pipes, wires, poor joints. Those holes will simply blow "enemy air" around your pricey insulation. The have to exist eliminated.
This doesn't need to happen all at one time. Shade first. Ventilation. Tin can foil if you lot get into the cranium and pass out. So think about pattern and material options for insulation. Ane matter that all insulation has in common is that information technology does not require power or maintenance. Simply repair when somebody opens a wall and messes it upwards. Your business firm may accept some insulation - gotta get behind the walls to find out. Yous could try poking upwards from the basement or poking down from the cranium (around the outer walls, that is). You may be able to meet whats in the attic floor (ceiling when looking up from below; simply information technology may non be the aforementioned in all areas.
Are you lot starting to wonder virtually shade trees? <GGG> Tall bushes or vines forth the sun walls of the firm can make a big divergence, likewise.
Cheers,
Rufus
posted 1 year ago Number of slices to send: Optional 'give thanks-you' note:
But wanted to thank you all for this splendid advice. I am digesting all the suggestions and thinking about which ones I can implement, and in what order.
posted 1 year ago Number of slices to transport: Optional 'thank-you' note:
i
How-do-you-do Mike,
Those cranium fans are still sold. I have i in my house. Here is the southern tip of Illinois information technology gets hot and boiling pretty fast. The fan delays the demand for air conditioning. I have the circulation arranged where it can vent the whole house or simply the attic. I likewise take the do good of three huge Oak trees to the s of the business firm.
Good decisions come from feel. Experience comes from making bad decisions. Marking Twain
Rufus Laggren
pollinator
Posts: 1233
Location: Chicago/San Francisco
posted i year ago Number of slices to send: Optional 'thank-you lot' annotation:
> existing insulation...
Some other way to try to see what y'all have in your walls is with a practiced small flashlight, a kitchen knife or some such "poke tool". Take the trim covers off electrical outlets, switchs, etc in exterior walls and gently poke around the edges of the box and see what you can see.
Rufus
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